Talk:Chara/@comment-4015220-20180519220127/@comment-35700847-20180528045237
@TheHumanAbassador "There was an advantage. If it was a human absorbing a monster SOUL, it would be VERY clear that they COULDN'T break the barrier. They wouldn't be NEAR as powerful. Even all of the monster SOULs combined just barely surpasses the power of ONE human SOUL. So, Chara would only ever gain around two SOULs worth of power. EVER. Nowhere close to being, say, a god of hyperdeath." The original plan of absorbing a soul wasn't to break the barrier in the first place though, it was to get past the barrier so they could get the human souls needed to break the barrier. Also why wouldn't they be near as powerful? There's no evidence to suggest they wouldn't, if a monster absorbing a humans soul creates a powerful being then why wouldn't a human absorbing a monster's soul produce the same result? Well Chara's plan was to break the barrier, they didn't exactly need to absorb the souls to break the barrier, they just needed to have them to break the barrier. "The reason was known:They hated humanity. " No, I meant the reason why they wanted to kill humans in the village specifically was unknown. As in, why they went to their home-village first out of all the places they could have set their plan into motion was unknown. "Yes. And take their SOULs, and gain more power. Besides, they needed Asriel to go along with it at:Starting with the monsters wouldn't help with that. It would RUIN their plan! Also, Chara likely became evil because of Asriel messing the plan up. Lead them to hate monsters too." That doesn't really debunk my point. If Asriel+Chara had more than enough power to kill every human in their home village, then killing the monsters underground would have been a breeze. You're missing my point, I said that to prove Chara had no intention of killing monsters with their newly gained power in the first place, which proves Chara was not hell-bent on killing everything. Okay but there was no reason why they would know it would ruin their plan. At the time they had no idea control was split between them so if they really were a genocidal maniac at the beginning they could have attempted to kill all monsters and then move on. I agree with that, so are we in agreement that when Chara first fell and lived with the dreemurrs they were not pure evil but not innocent either and more of a neutral bad person? "To not break Asriel's trust?" I'm not sure how to respond to this because in what way do you mean? Because they cared about Asriel's trust or because they needed Asriel's trust to go further with their own ideas? "Remember. Humans first. Gotta keep Asriel on your side, without him, you are nothing. (Though really, I'd say they turned evil right AFTER they died-Asriel messing up the plan probably had something to do with it.)" I would agree but remember, Chara had control of the body instantly when they first fused. For all they knew, they were in control of the body since Asriel did not show any signs of having control too until after they reached the village. (I'd say they turn evil in genocide because they are shown by Frisk that they were right, if they try to hold back against the enemy the enemy strikes and kills them. They then see the monsters as enemies because probably because of how they felt betrayed by Asriel. But I do believe Chara turned good at some point in pacifist.) "...They weren't? They WERE going to break the barrier. Also, they had no plan on betraying Asriel. How could they do that anyway? By not breaking the barrier, and thus breaking the illusion of reason to Chara's plan? This is also why Chara got the humans to attack, by the way-To make the humans look evil so Asriel would be willing to kill them, rather than just spare all but six and just break the barrier, or worse, kill NONE of them (How'd that work out for you, Chara?) So there IS a reason why Chara did what they did here." I didn't say they weren't going to break the barrier, I said they were. I was providing evidence as to why Chara was going to break the barrier. Remember, Chara had control the whole way to the village, there's no reason why they would have to worry about keeping Asriel on their side if they had no idea Asriel could even take control in the first place. Also Chara wasn't getting the humans to attack so they could make Asriel willing to attack back. If that were the case Asriel wouldn't have had to hold back Chara's attack, because Chara wouldn't be the one attacking in the first place. There would be no reason for Chara to "go all out" because if what you're saying is true Chara would just need to corner Asriel into this scenario so that he would go all out himself. "Looks like you misinterprted it just like all those elite Chara defenders do. Let me give you the exact quote, in context, to show you what is REALLY going on. "At first, I was so confused. Our plan had failed, hadn't it? Why was I brought back to life? ...You. With your guidance. I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power." "You, with your guidance" is therefore talking about what came before-We are the reason why Chara was brought back to life. At the very start, in fact. And this statement simply answered that. After which, Chara just remarks that now they realised the purpose of their reincarnation. Our guidance has nothing to do with that-Otherwise, there would be a comma rather than a period after "guidance". So.. Yeah. They found that out without us." I see your point there, but that still doesn't actually explain where that realization came from. I doubt that after coming back to life they would come to that conclusion on their own that they should kill everyone for power, it seems a lot more likely that Chara would see you killing and then realize killing=gaining power. Unless you're implying they wanted power from the very start of their fall and that's why it came to them so easily, but wanting power Isn't what Chara originally wanted. Killing humans because they were a bad person? Yeah. Gaining power for the sake of power? Not really. But I guess you could argue that they would want revenge against monsters because of Asriel "betraying them" and that was the reason they went after monsters, if that's what you mean. "It is a fact that Chara is soulless-Otherwise they wouldn't be able to take yours, as humans cannot absorb other human SOULs. They're actually some kind of ghost. However, remember, Flowey started off good. Being SOULless doesn't make you instantly turn evil-It takes a LONG time for that to happen. Far more than a few minutes. :3" Yeah, then Chara is definitely soulless and being a ghost also makes sense. Asriel and Chara were too completely different people. They handled it differently because Asriel was a nice person in life and Chara wasn't exactly a good person in life. Also I would like to add in that Chara woke up after feeling like Asriel betrayed them AND the first thing they get to see in genocide is you killing monsters for power. Keep in mind that they woke up confused, they decided on the "Reincarnation for power" by themself but there's only one thing that could have influenced them to settle on that idea. Unless we're going with the idea that they were always power hungry and genocidal towards monsters in life? "First, Flowey spent the entire run not knowing the difference between Frisk and Chara. How would he know Chara was fighting the resets if it was then? Chara's actions are indistinguahable from Frisk's actions to everyone but ourselves (and we only know because we ARE Frisk.) This quote must be referring to a time when they were still alive. Second, Chara DID follow us. We just don't see them do it because, well, we can't normally see them EVER outisde of a Genocide or Souless Pacifost Run, as they have no physical form. That's kind of why we're hearing Flowey's monolouge to Chara in the first place? Because they're still with us? Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to hear that speech." ...Because at the end of Pacifist Asriel admits that Chara and Frisk are not the same person and can clearly tell the difference between the both of them? Not only that, but Flowey could obviously tell Chara and Frisk were different people from the start, only when he became Asriel did he try to project Chara onto Frisk. Which is evidenced by what Flowey says at the beginning of the game, he clearly can tell Frisk is new and takes the opportunity to get Frisks' soul since they don't know a thing. Plus it's obvious he's not talking about a time when they were alive, Chara was never trying to stop the power they had when he took their soul and the ability to control timelines is the only other power he had that can be referenced. Also Flowey didn't mix them up for the entire run, Flowey(Not Asriel) doesn't call Frisk by the name Chara once or even imply that Frisk is Chara once, only when he is Asriel does he try to force Frisk to fit into his image of Chara. We both agree that Chara is with Frisk in pacifist though, right? How would Chara hear the speech if they're with Frisk? It makes a lot more sense that Chara was stuck in the underground(where Flowey is) while Frisk goes to the surface. I can agree to Frisk being able to hear or see what Chara see's though, and that Frisk still had the ability to reset or true reset but Chara clearly did help Frisk fight against the reset ability. Quick question, do you believe in the Charrator theory that has a lot of evidence backing it up?(Despite not being confirmed) "...Chara doesn't get to make that choice. We do. We're not Chara. Ever. Guess Flowey thought Chara had the power, when it's still Frisk who has it. " I can see your point on this. I agree now. "Maybe they weren't when they were alive, but during the entire duration of gameplay they were." What makes them evil during Pacifist? "...We're not Chara. US choosing not to reset doesn't make CHARA good. It makes FRISK good. And based on Flowey's speech, we can infer Chara wanted to reset. " I get your point now on the first part, Chara did not have the ability to reset at that point, Frisk still did. But I don't think we can infer Chara did want a reset, Flowey said they were fighting to stop "that power". He thought Chara had it and went to beg them to not reset(Not because Chara wanted a reset, we don't see a response from Chara so we can't assume what they wanted.) but most likely because he did not trust Chara anymore, he realized that they were fighting against that power but since in life they were extremely manipulating he clearly still views them as being unpredictable. In his mind, while there is a chance they did good they could still just be a manipulative jerk. But in the end Chara gives no response.